Vendor Interview - Kaki of Clinical Traditions

Please enjoy our audio (some windy moments) or transcribed version of the latest vendor interview with Katherine Bryan (AKA Kaki) of Clinical Traditions Herb Company, with specific updates on her whereabouts in the upcoming months as she anticipates the arrival of a new baby boy.

Find her website here!

[This interview has been edited for clarity.]

August 17, 2024 Interview (3rd of series): 

Nadia: Hi, this is Nadia Korths, co-founder of Murray Hill Farmers Market as well as vendor. I'm here with Kaki (Katherine) Bryan from Clinical Traditions Herbalist. Did I say that right? 

Kaki: Clinical Traditions Herb Company. 

N: We're here sitting under the bridge doing our interview of the quarter. So I'm going to ask Kaki some questions. 

K: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. 

N: Yes. It's fun being able to do this with you.

I love your holistic approach.  Tell us about your herbal business and how you got here.

K: My herbal business was just an extension of my lifelong obsession of trying to live my healthiest, and hopefully prevent some of the perplexing and complex chronic diseases that I've seen in my family, and seen in so many people around me. 

I first was a personal trainer and into yoga. My yoga instructor introduced me to herbalism. Once I saw herbalism could be a career, from attending the Florida Herbal Conference, I decided to pursue it and see where it would lead me. My yoga teacher recommended a clinical herbalism teacher and I took a preliminary class with him at the Florida Herbal Conference; an event I highly recommend. There, I (realized) I wanted to study full-time with him, so I did. After studying herbs from books and the internet (at herb school), I then pursued a job on a herb farm in Pennsylvania to study herbs in person. 

N: So when did you start? When did you go to the herbal conference?

K: Herbal Conference was 2019 or 2018. I started herb school in 2019. 

N: No kidding!

K:  I was looking for a career change. I didn't really feel (that) personal training was “it” for me. I was also doing clinical exercise physiology. So I had taken my current career to the highest positions that I thought it could go; doing cardiac rehab, pulmonary rehab, and even physical therapy assisting, and it wasn’t as fulfilling as I had hoped. 

N: So you came into herbalism already with that background. So that's part of why you do such a holistic approach in your herbalism. 

OK, but I'm jumping ahead. So you start, you go to school. How many hours is that? That's like a lot of hours. 

K: It was 2,000 hours of training in clinical herbalism. I had 10 Clinical cases so 10 private clients who sought out the school. The school offers a free herbal health clinic.

N: Oh, so I could go there? 

K: Yeah, we did a lot of zoom calls and stuff (for the clinic). It's in North Carolina. It's called the Eclectic School of Herbal Medicine, with Thomas Easley.

N: Oh yeah, I’ve got his book. He's good.

K: I definitely recommend his book The Modern Herbal Dispensatory. For medicine making specifically. 

N: When did you start coming to RAM? 

K: I got into RAM in 2022.

N: This is a fairly recent career? But you're so knowledgeable!  

K: Well, I just pursue my passions hard. 

N: Yeah, boy, you do. 

K: I don't know if it was approaching my 30s, (kind of) feeling like I'm “running out of time”. I wanted to have my career figured out.

N: How did you come up with (the name) Clinical Traditions? Because it's perfect for you. 

K: Thank you. It's a mouthful so I question it sometimes. (The name idea came from) Rosemary Gladstar's tea line, ‘Traditional Medicinals’ as an inspiration; I thought about being a clinical herbalist, and doing traditional medicine, hence “Clinical Traditions”.

N: When a new person comes into your booth, what’s the range of questions that you ask? Because you don't just ask what's the symptom? (And then say) I've got what you need for that. You get into the (person’s) background. I remember you told me (that) I had to chew my food more slowly. You really get into a detailed (exploration) of these other parts. 

K: Because this will help the medicine work more effectively. For example, if you exercise more, if you eat a little more healthy… 

N: You do it much more politely than I am doing right now. You touch base (with the whole person). 

K: I try to keep in mind the general Western energetics of humans and plants. So that’s being hot, cold, dry, damp. You can look at a person and just generally (get a sense).  Usually (asking about) bowel movements is the easiest way to figure out (basic energetics). 

OK, are you hot? Meaning that's an excitatory, fast-paced state. So maybe a thinner (person). Or diarrhea. And then cold (indicates) slow; (I ask about) metabolism/hypothyroidism or weight gain or constipation?

I look at the person and figure out a little bit of their constitution and ask about the symptom/s. 

(For example, I ask) What do you want an herb for? 

Well, I want an herb for blood pressure. 

(Then I ask further) Do you need to move more, (probing into if they) are more like the damp, cold/slow picture, (with) maybe swollen tissues if they don't move a lot?  Or is it stress? Are you fast paced but you're just overdoing it?

I see where on the (herbal energetic) spectrum they lie. 

N: That's how you can decide!

K: (For that example above), I can recommend my stress tincture, (even though) it doesn't say (it’s for) blood pressure on it, but because you work so hard, this (stress tincture) might (help) your blood pressure.  Or if you eat a standard American diet (SAD) (I would) maybe (recommend) the Roselle Tea would be better because it has more (of) the anthocyanins/more nutrition (to supplement a nutrient deficient diet).

N:That is a wonderful part, a key part of your business. I’m really glad that we've gone into a bit of detail to find out (more). It makes a big difference to have those questions asked to make sure that the herbs will work the best for people. 

K: Of course I can only do this as much as people are willing to share. Which is (why I have) lots of fun at the smaller markets, like Murray Hill (Farmers Market) because (I) have the time (to talk), there’s less people coming up to the table. It's more personable.

N: How do you grow your herbs? Because you grow a good part of your herbs. 

K: I'm able to grow 100% of my tea herbs (and 90% of the herbs) for the tinctures and tonics. Tinctures meaning an alcohol extract. (For example,) I don't grow the mushrooms (I use), I get those from other Jacksonville growers. So they're still Jacksonville based. 

There's like one or two herbs that I don’t grow but I want to include (them) in the product. I feel (that) they're so important for the body system that the product's made for. 

I source  from other small organic family farms that do the same thing. Usually they're all on the East Coast, so I feel like they're still local. They're still American grown. That's what 's important to me. 

N: And plus, I mean, you're growing 100% of your tea blends. 

K: (I am growing) about 35 different species of plants. And then source in like eight or so more so it's about 80-90%. 

N: I just loved when I went to visit where you and Ashantae were sharing (land). Are you still out there?

K: I’m the last one remaining.

N: And you've got a little bit more time there.

K: Uh huh. We’re still looking for a (farm) space (for the future).

N: What are you looking for?

K: Right now I'm working with a quarter acre and I have a 20 foot greenhouse and I have well water. So I have a lot of good benefits. (My desire is getting a) half acre with well water. That would be great. And if there was a greenhouse or something like that, even better. Or space, at least the space (to build up a similar) kind of setup. 

N: Murray Hill Farmer's Market is about regenerative practices and getting people to (learn) more about it. What are some regenerative practices that you are using growing your herbs?

K: I first mostly care about regenerative practices to 1),  make the most potent (plant) medicine, grow the most potent medicine that I can. That is done by (having a diverse) soil microbiology. 

And 2), to make it (the) easiest. To make it easy on myself, and my coworkers/my farm hands, who are also women. 

I find that I can make stronger plants (and) stronger soil with some regenerative practices. (which also overlap with) some of the (practices) that I do just make my (farming) life easier. 

Because once you get it set up (a certain way), it's just easier to maintain. 

The majority of plants I grow are annuals. They usually have an eight-month lifespan. Chamomile is my favorite example. Once it's done come July. There's no chamomile living in July in Florida. July gets too rainy, (and) those (chamomile) stems just die. 

(So) last year I cut the stems back to the ground to leave the roots intact (and then cover cropped). This year I just threw sun hemp seeds (on the chamomile rows) as cover crop over it; (I didn’t cut them back, and) I don't even see the chamomile stems anymore! They all rotted in place and the cover crop (Sun hemp) is preventing weeds. I do it mostly for weeds.  And because I don't buy compost and I don't import soil. I use (organic animal byproduct) fertilizer and fish emulsion; that I buy. But I don't import soil.  Because I'm lucky, the “weeds” (aka my crops) that I grow, like chamomile, appreciate a little less nutrient (rich) soil compared to vegetables. 

N: Yes, yes, yes. 

K: The different plant nutrients that chamomile produces, (indicates to me that) it doesn't need the same nutritious soil that a lettuce (needs). It's different nutrients (inputted and output).

So yeah, that's my favorite thing. Just letting the roots rot in place. And I'll do that with some of the bigger stuff like Roselle. I'll just chop it back to the ground. The (stems) do need to be chopped and dropped (versus just rotting away quickly like chamomile).

N: Does (the Roselle) come back? 

K: No. A lot of the (herbs) are annuals.  And our climate is just a little bit too cold or a little bit too hot for most (plants).

My favorite (regenerative) practice though, is when I process (the dried plant for) tea. I (separate) the stems from the leaves (for tea), (and) compost those stems back into my (garden) aisles;  I use (the stems) as mulch. 

N: You put it right on the aisles? 

K: Yeah, back as mulch. I would have a crap ton of stems that wouldn't be decomposing, if I (only) put them in a pile in the yard. They wouldn't decompose as well as they do spread out. 

N: That's nice! On the path. Oh, I like that. I have also been using some of the stems and leaves, if there's too much growing. I'll throw it in water and add some blackstrap molasses and just let it sit there for a few weeks and make a fermented tea and add that. I'm still tweaking that.

K: I would probably do so much more if I lived on the farm and I had more experimental time. We just moved so it's 40 minutes away from us now. So it's workday bare bones (tasks, when I visit the farm). 

N: We need to find you a place close to you. So we're looking for a place for Kaki that is someplace on the Southside. 

K: Yeah, more (in) Jacksonville proper versus the farm (where I am now) in the Dinsmore area, on the way to Callahan. It's very close to Callahan. 

N: Who knows! Something might come out of this. We were talking earlier that most of your tinctures are really sought after. That people really want them because they really work. So tell us about one or two.

K: (Talk about) formulations?

N: Yeah. So people get a sense of what you offer. 

K: (Well,) my constraints, on what I formulate, are (based on) what grows here. I do make an exception for a (few) plants specifically, but I (mostly) focus on what grows here (called bio-regional herbalism). So I'm gonna put turmeric and ginger in the blends because, because we're (in) Florida, right? We’re subtropical, climate-wise. And we're living here as well, so we want to eat what is growing (here) of the plants because “medicine that's indicated for us, will usually grow near us.”

N: So that's what in the bitters I just got from you. On a cellular level, the plants and soil of where we live, we are in the closest relationship with. 

K: (When formulating, I consider) what do people generally need (as far as herbal supplements go)? What are the most common ailments, what’s the pathology going on in those conditions, and what general herbs support those body systems? 

Working in the health field for 10 years before becoming an herbalist, I got a general idea of what (people) suffer from. What are these mysterious symptoms that they have (herbalism helped me decode the mystery from a holistic perspective), and what herbs could help, in addition to them exercising and improving their diet?

 For me, going to herbalism school was (important) to learn about the liver and the thyroid, those two organs that I didn't learn (about) in exercise physiology schooling. Because (there, at UNF) I learnt about diabetes, the heart, a lot of vasculature, muscles, bones (education on general anatomy and physiology). 

N: So that's perfect.  Those ten years gave you all that and then in the herbalism you could really learn about them.  

K: And (more about the) gut (and) the immune system. 

 N: Now that we (know) we have three to four pounds of little beings.

K: I just love that. More foreign cells than human cells. And we have also co-evolved with these cells. They have informed (the way) we (function). 

It's the same with the natural world. There weren't as many flowering plants until pollinators like bees and wasps came on the scene. 

But we have (been) living in the cities (with) urban sterilization. So introducing these different plant species hopefully will remind our body how to work (more) properly.

I don't know if I answered the specific tincture (question)… 

N: No, but that's really important what you just said right there. 

K: Our body, our cells, our fluids are like a soup of cosmic (ingredients) essentially. (Our innards/wellbeing is) formed (and fortified) by bacteria and plants who produce the chemicals and the nutrients that they do to fight off disease and pests (for themselves). And we evolved eating their defense mechanisms.  Eating their defense helps to give us those superpowers as well.

N: You are glowing in your pregnancy. Could you share what you are doing? 

K: Last year, we were trying to get pregnant, Nothing happened. 

In the meantime, (in my part time job, I was asked to) sweep the oak leaves on a land trust (I garden for). We're sweeping oak leaves constantly (in the spring), and this is my fourth year doing that, which I think has led to me developing a little bit of an oak allergy. 

I started taking nettles (as tea) this January and February and I think that is what (helped) me get pregnant, is taking nettles. Isn't that crazy?

We use nettles for hormones and allergies.  You just can't predict (the outcome when beginning to consume plants that your body needs).

N: Nettles are so powerful and nutritious and gentle.

K: For the skin, bones, hair, yeah, everything. And so, maybe the relaxation, and not putting so much pressure on it. 

But in general, (I am) keeping vital by sleeping at least eight, sometimes nine hours a night. Some of the research says women need more sleep than men. Sleep's super important. Now I nap a lot being pregnant and working outside. Yeah, I'm very fortunate to work for myself, (so I can) nap and create my own schedule. 

And then movement, just always being active.  I think movement, sunlight and sleep takes care of a lot of it (the glowing).

I'm also a big meat fan, so I think good healthy meat. That’s the five things I can do that keeps me vital. And the farmers market food (fresh food). It's working really, really well.

Yeah, I'm eight months pregnant right now. 

N: Oh my god, you're already eight months. 

K: Yeah, one week till eight, but yeah. 

N: Wow.

K: And still doing all my regular activities. I'm working outside three, four days a week. Shorter shifts, but through the summer, through all these heat advisories. 

N: Look at you. But are you working in the shade? 

K: Not usually, no. 

N: Oh my God, really? You are able to do that? 

K: I am. I'm starting to cramp up because (it’s hard to intake enough water), it's like waterboarding. I'm not thirsty (because I’m drinking so much to prevent dehydration).

N: Right right right. Yeah, I get into that too. You're right! 

K: So I'm starting to (slow down) now. It's time to take breaks. Yeah, it's time to take off.

N: Good for you doing the naps in the afternoon. Okay, so talking about your pregnancy, fill us in on what your expected schedule is as you're coming in so we know when to order from you. What are you projecting in the next few months? 

K: So my market schedule is gonna be a bit shoddy. I expect to take off the later half of October, and most of November.

I'm starting to train up (new staff/teammate) for RAM, for the Riverside Arts Market. 

I have had one woman interested in helping out at the Murray Hill Market. 

N: Oh cool. So there might still be a new face with the herbs.

K:  Yeah, one of those like once a month (at MHFM), because I don't want to be juggling too much.

N:  Another wise decision - not overloading with the stress. 

K: Yeah, I'm due at the end of October so definitely all of October taking off and probably the first couple weeks in November, but again, I'll have someone at Riverside Arts markets, my biggest market. 

Honestly, as a business owner, I need to go to the markets where I make the most money, (and that) is Riverside Arts Market. There's the great foot traffic and it's been around for what, a couple decades? Do you know?

N: It's been 15 years now. 

K:  So for my smaller markets that I love; the Murray Hill and the Atlantic Beach (markets), I'll either be having like a vendor friend bring orders (to the regulars) or (people can order)  the whole product line online. 

N: That's good to know. Your whole product line is online! So we can order from you. From ClinicalTraditions.com.  But we might get a response during October saying, I won't be able to get to you until mid November or something along that line.

But we can also go to the markets mid November and probably find, if not you, someone there and we can pick up (products) there or we can get it mailed sometime after mid November. 

You're anticipating yourself maybe coming back for the holidays? 

K: Oh yeah!  Come meet my baby boy in December!

N: That's gonna be so exciting.  And your baby’s a boy! Congratulations! 

K: Right now on the website it's free shipping if you make an order over $75. But I'm probably going to reduce that during my maternity leave. I haven't decided, $35 maybe? 

N: Free shipping! Oh, that's a great idea to do that. 

K: If you buy essentially two things. Or if you're super local, I'll deliver for free.

N: Except for the months of October and November, we'll be able to either order from you before or know that right afterwards we'll be able to reconnect. So it's getting to be the end of August (when we did this interview) so stock up in September.

K: I just made plans with MJ to try to make it the first three weeks in a row at Murray Hill Market  in September.

N: That is great. Now we know. What collaborations do you have going on with other vendors?

K: I'm working with Noah at Harmony Mushrooms sourcing his mushrooms.  Sourcing the best locally grown mushrooms! I'm also working with Davey, with Kravey Micro Greens, at his urban riverside farm. He has allotted me space to grow at least eight blue butterfly pea plants. And that's really helpful because they need to be harvested frequently, and I have an employee that lives in Riverside (to do the harvesting). 

N: Oh, sweet.

K: She can go twice a week. It's super simple versus the Callahan Farm. In exchange for the plot, I've been exploring different edible flowers with him, because that's one (aspect) of his business.

He does a lot of salads in the fall but in the summer it's a little harder, (so we’re experimenting with different summer crops). There's perennials type spinaches.  The cranberry hibiscus is something we're helping out with. He's offering Tulsi Basil on his table. I started that for him. So he sells more of the fresh herbs. 

N: Great collaboration for both of you.  That's really sweet. 

K: He's super generous. 

N: He's such a sweetheart. 

K: Yeah, the best microgreens. There's a lot of good microgreens.

N: How did you learn about the Murray Hill Farmers Market?

 K: I lived in Murray Hill when it started and then I started the market when it was already a year old. So have I been there a year? How old is it?

N: Almost two years. 

K: I've been there almost one year then. I just recently moved away from the neighborhood, (but) I lived right down the street when I started. 

There’s another herbalist that I follow on Instagram. I saw her join. I saw some people in the community join.

I had been in touch with MJ through Eartha's farm before (the market started). 

N: Oh, that's right. That's a connection that a few of us have. 

K: She was volunteering a couple years ago while I was doing free workshops. 

N: Oh, so that's how you know her. 

K: I love how I feel like she (MJ) puts farmers first… I think (focusing on) growers (as vendors is what) makes a good market. Of course the fresh (cooked) food and art is amazing and should be celebrated. 

But I think to have customers go (to the market) weekly (it should be farmer focused). And I'm such a utilitarian, so I love the focus on groceries. It's also great to have community (at the market). To eat food that is grown with care (and locally) is really important. 

N: it's so wonderful to see how MJ hold to that because you're right.

K: I really feel like  that my input or opinions or my requests (are respected). I feel very valued (as a farmer vendor), which is good.  And I like the fact that it's small (the MHFM). Now it's about 13 (vendors) for the summer, then (in Sept.) it’ll go back to 20 or 25.  We (vendors and customers) can get to know each other.  There's a good variety (of offerings) which is nice.  One of the awesome things about Murray Hill FM is that there's such a loyal customer base and new people coming out too. 

And then (I love having a market on) Wednesday evenings between 5 and 8.  It's a lot shorter than my other markets and I make similar money.

It's amazing.  It's so much fun. When I was drinking, I would have a drink. That's always fun. 

N:  Well, you're going to be back to hopefully drinking a tiny bit when your boy arrives, to celebrate! A nice little local champagne or cider.

This has been a great, great interview. Thank you, Kaki, so, so much. 

You've heard the schedule, so remember to order before the end of September. Kaki's going to be at the Murray Hill Market from 5 to 8 on Wednesday through September and at RAM through (most of) October also. 

She's going to take a month and a half off (at MHFM) and we'll find her again midway through November. Thank you, Kaki. 

K: Thank you.  I have an email list. It's easy to subscribe to the email list to get exact dates. You can sign up at the bottom of my website, www.ClinicalTraditions.com. and I also frequently post on my Instagram @Clinical.Traditions.Herb.Co . That's my favorite (platform), which I think cross-posts to Facebook. It's a green logo.

N: Thank you for saying that about your Instagram, website, and email newsletter.

 K: Usually you can type in “clinical” and I'll pop up on most things. You can type on Google “Jacksonville Herb Farm” and I'll pop up.

N: Okay. All right, my dear, have a great rest of your pregnancy. 

K: Yay, I'm so glad to be able to do this with y'all.  

N: We'll see you on the other side as well.